Torque Vs Revs: What's better for the sporty/enthusiast driver, Oppo?

"n54 & s38" (straight6) 10/30/2014 at 16:39 • Filed to: None

1

35

" !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! " target="_blank">

" OR " !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! " target="_blank">

"

Just curious about your thoughts on this. I guess it's been on my mind ever since I picked up my E34 M5. The S38 motor loves revs. LOVES them. It'll happily spin to redline all day long. The rev limiter on my car is supposedly set at 7200 RPMs but I haven't really hit it yet )my car is also chipped, which raises the limiter). It's fun as hell to wind the car out, but it also occasionally gets tiring, particularly in stop and go traffic. The car also only has 5 gears and they're fairly widely spaced. Redline in 3rd is good for 160 kms/hr. As a result it's hard to really wring all the power out of the engine as by the time I'm up in the rev range, I'm already breaking the speed limit. The car really wakes up around 4000 RPMs and pulls with a renewed vigor. But spinning it up there all the time also uses a shit ton of gas as well. Gear selection is critical as well: the engine can tend to feel flat when loping along in the higher gears.

This is quite the contrast with my other car, a 2008 BMW 335xi. The N54 motor is all about torque, 300+lb/ft of it delivered at 1500 RPMs. The damn thing makes so much torque seemingly just off idle that I find myself skipping gears all the time, simply because I can shift from 1-2-4-6 without the engine feeling flat at all. This car could probably make do with 4 widely-spaced gears and be just fine: proper gear selection is far less important. It also makes it really easy to quickly speed up or merge in busy traffic and even makes it easy to get rolling up hills and at low speeds in bumper to bumper traffic. Still, I rarely find myself running the engine up to redline, because it's simply not needed and it doesn't have the same vigor for RPMs that the S38 motor does. Above about 5000 RPMs, when the S38 is on cam, it actually feels faster than the N54 does. The S38 just feels racier and semi-exotic at those speeds, like the detuned racing engine that it is. But the N54 is easier to drive at lower speeds, regardless of gear and feels quicker from low speeds, thanks to the instant slug of torque available.

So, I ask you, Oppo, what's better/more enjoyable for the enthusiast driver: lots of low-RPM grunt/torque or high-RPM horsepower/revs? Corvette or RX-8? What do you guys think?

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:41

5

I prefer a torquey car. It's nice to put your foot down in any gear and get a punch of torque. It's also much better for daily duty.

Hahayoustupidludditeshutupandgohandcrankyourmodeltalready > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:41

0

I think it comes down to personal preference.

GhostZ > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:43

0

Torque at the rear wheels over an RPM range relative to weight is all that matters.

If you've got an engine that makes tons of torque, then gear it so you get a moderate amount of torque at the rear wheels over a higher speed range, scaling linearly with the weight of the car.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:44

1

Well in my experience it is torque, but then I have never driven a rotary or s2000. My Accord hypothetically has decent hp when it hits VTEC YO, but it doesn't like to rev really.

macanamera > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:44

1

You feel torque all the time. You feel horsepower when you wring it out. Both is nice.

HammerheadFistpunch > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:45

1

Its a personal preference thing. Me, I prefer the response, noise and linearity a well sorted NA motor gives over the thrusting, sometimes lumpy and artificial feeling of forced induction. I've had both, but I prefer power of torque...'cept in trucks.

RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:46

2

NA torques, for me.

Carlitos the Fünfer > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:47

0

I'd rather rev it out. There's something fun about downshifting and throwing it around a bend.

itschrome > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:52

0

I have always been a Torque guy, no need for high fast revs as I never really run a car in the way that would require that, but damn is a torque driven car great fun around town and on the highway. Punch it any time and you get that surge. Current car is pushing 300 ft-lb* and I couldn't be happier!

deekster_caddy > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:54

3

I've always been a fan of low end torque.

455 ci, 7.6 liter in car in front, 496 ci, 8.1 liter in yukon in back)

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 16:56

1

I prefer revs. I think anyone who has the chance to drive a rev-happy car hard would agree. When it comes to BMW motors, I feel that there's no comparison (in terms of enjoyment) between the torquey turbocharged motors and those sweet, sweet NA engines they have abandoned, potent as the turbocharged ones may be. My car is basically all torque, though, and I enjoy being able to let the tires loose with just a bit of effort. The argument that torquey engines are better around town is certainly true, but not very telling—considering the fact that most NA engines have sufficient low end grunt combined with great responsiveness, and make up for it in the excitement of winding them out. Again, my car makes peak power at 4,500 RPM so I'm not ragging on pushrods or turbochargers, but revs are far more satisfying if you are in the right car.

n54 & s38 > JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 10/30/2014 at 16:59

1

True. I just feel like it's harder to enjoy the fun of high-RPM horsepower as much as low-end grunt in day-to-day driving. It's more exhilarating in some ways though when you've got it in just right gear, spinning the motor hard...

jariten1781 > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:01

1

I tend to prefer torque for my daily and revs for my toys.

davedave1111 > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:01

2

Torque and revs?

In the absence of that, I'll take the revs in a car intended for fun. It's much more fun running up and downt he box while I drive, but only if I actually need to.

Ducky > Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. 10/30/2014 at 17:03

2

S2000s are strange to drive. I fucking love them, but they feel super fast without any sense of force. It's as if a screaming banshee is propelling you forward without any actual force interaction. That, and binary VTEC is jarring in the best way. It's a huge kick at 5600.

Yogurt > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:04

0

Why not both??? There's more than one way to make both good low end torque AND high RPM horsepower.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:04

1

With the tune, mine revs to 8600, so yeah... Put me in that camp.

davedave1111 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/30/2014 at 17:04

0

Which engine do you have in the Panda? Not taking the piss, I used to have a Punto with the 1.2 8v, and although it had minimal power and torque, what torque it did have came in very low down the range thanks to those big valves gobbling in lots of air at low revs. It was great for cruising in fifth at about 40mph, late at night on old roads, pretending it was the seventies because it was a sports car by seventies standards :)

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > davedave1111 10/30/2014 at 17:09

1

I bought the diesel. I test drove a 1.2 petrol and it was almost unbearably slow. It's only a second or two slower to 60 than the diesel but it felt worse than the figures suggest. It was better lower in the rev range than most small petrols but it still wasnt anywhere near the torque of the diesel. The diesel picks up quite well other than some turbo lag.

Not to mention the diesel gets better economy and cheaper tax.

n54 & s38 > davedave1111 10/30/2014 at 17:10

1

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel too. The M5 isn't a daily driver so it's fun to take it out and rev the snot out of it and work the gearbox. The 335 makes for a better DD.

nermal > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:10

1

Like most things, it depends on how and where it's being used.

For a street car, you want that sweet torque-y midrange. Think a newer GTI or a 335. Best when ripping thru 2nd / 3rd / 4th gears in the 3-5k rpm range.

For a track car, you want high rpms. Any of the n/a M cars, a rotary, etc. It doesn't really matter what the low or even midrange is like, because you'll never be there. You want max power at max revs. Sportbikes fall into this category as well. :-)

davedave1111 > Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. 10/30/2014 at 17:12

0

Makes sense. I haven't driven one, but on paper they look fairly similar. I can well believe that you'd have to be very used to the petrol before you really learnt to wring it out - in mine you really needed to anticipate so you could shift early and stay in the sweet spot, or you'd be completely fucked.

JayZAyEighty thinks C4+3=C7 > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:12

0

It is, and I certainly enjoy being able to put my foot down at 2000 RPM and feel like I'm being pushed into my seat, having to shift before 3,500 to avoid losing traction. But having had the opportunity to nearly redline a few NA cars (200hp Honda four, 255hp BMW I6), I realize that it's another level of driving satisfaction. The induction howl and instant response, anticipation as the power builds smoothly, and the moment where the engine is at its performance peak making surreal noises and lots of power. The fact that you know how much power you'll get at x RPM at a certain gear lets you have a bit of fun, because you can always get the most out of your engine at some point (even in city driving) without worrying about power coming on unexpectedly. But I've never driven a car where I thought it was difficult to get enough torque to get around at low speeds. I think torque is generally as enjoyable, though, and it is very accessible.

Twingo Tamer - About to descend into project car hell. > davedave1111 10/30/2014 at 17:17

1

Yeah I didnt feel comfortable really wringing it out on a test drive. I did have one or two 3000 rpm clutch drops just to make gaps on roundabouts though.

I think the petrol could be fun driven hard but I do a lot more motorway than town miles so being able to cruise at low revs at 75mph in the diesel is much better. The base 1.1 Panda must be a complete nightmare though, not a car you'd want to leave town in.

TheCraigy > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:18

1

Torque feels faster than it is. Horsepower is faster than it feels.

It is awesome wringing out a revvy car, but it's very satisfying getting the power from the start.

But really for me, more power = more funner, however delivered.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:19

1

Torque is the winner for me but I do love a midrange power band. High revs are asking for oil consumption and main bearing wear ahem cough *s65 and S85*.

Big Bubba Ray > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:24

1

This is a really really hard choice. I think I prefer revs. Like you mentioned, my Datsun really wakes up and loves to rip away right at 3500 RPM.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht 10/30/2014 at 17:27

0

Seconded

Jayhawk Jake > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 17:58

2

Low power torque IMO. Being thrown back immediately is better than ringing out a motor.

I've driven S2k's and RX8's, they're fun. The amount of revs is unreal. Compared to touching the accelerator in a ZR1? Not even close. That instant WHAM of torque is incredible.

DoYouEvenShift > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 18:15

3

Torque for me. Or more specific, a broad power curve. Any rpm, you mash the gas and the car lunges forward. Having driven both, I hate the feeling of having to wait for the power to build.

However, when possible, both are nice to have.

biker > davedave1111 10/30/2014 at 18:20

0

TORQUE! I am a fan of heavy flywheels, & low revs, like vinage cars, model A for example

MM54 > n54 & s38 10/30/2014 at 18:47

1

In my opinion, it takes a good balance, but if you had to lean one way or another I'd go for the torque - it's just all-around more usable and enjoyable than having to rev the crap out of the engine to get going anywhere.

(I feel bad for posting this but if anyone could help me out, that'd be great - http://mattlachesky.kinja.com/damnit-kinja-1… )

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Ducky 10/30/2014 at 18:57

0

I like the kick, but I like it low down in the Rev range.

samssun > n54 & s38 10/31/2014 at 01:36

0

False choice. Torque determines whether your car will move, but power always determines how fast. High torque engines aren't fast because of torque, but because the low end torque multiplies into low end power, so its real value is making more power all around (relative to the peak number).

samssun > nermal 10/31/2014 at 01:38

0

I want max power at all revs, which is what a fat torque curve allows. A track car can get away with low torque and a peaky powerband if you gear it so that it never drops out of that narrow useful range, but it would always be better to have a decent torque curve because it would fill in your power deficit elsewhere.